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	<title>Comments on: How to Talk About Cycling to a Conservative</title>
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	<description>Tips, Hints, Reviews and Safety for Bike Commuters</description>
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		<title>By: Weesy</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1349272</link>
		<dc:creator>Weesy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 07:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-1349272</guid>
		<description>I understand why you find this a beettr option. And that reinforces what I mentioned briefly in the post: Whenever you see lots of different cyclists finding their own various and creative ways through a particular area that may indicate an underlying problem.Does anybody else remember: It&#039;s been only 10 years or so, since they completely tore up this part of Coburg Road and re-did it. They did build some new stretches of path and those underpasses, which are nice. But I wonder if there were other ideas and options for bike lanes/paths through this area that got left out of the final plan due to budget or something??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand why you find this a beettr option. And that reinforces what I mentioned briefly in the post: Whenever you see lots of different cyclists finding their own various and creative ways through a particular area that may indicate an underlying problem.Does anybody else remember: It&#8217;s been only 10 years or so, since they completely tore up this part of Coburg Road and re-did it. They did build some new stretches of path and those underpasses, which are nice. But I wonder if there were other ideas and options for bike lanes/paths through this area that got left out of the final plan due to budget or something??</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1322872</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 04:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-1322872</guid>
		<description>Funny thing Modern &quot;Liberal&quot; like being told what to do. The irony..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny thing Modern &#8220;Liberal&#8221; like being told what to do. The irony..</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Siegle</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1116500</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Siegle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 02:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-1116500</guid>
		<description>Tom, I ride my bike wherever possible - I also take two small children to day care/school that&#039;s quite a distance (without busing) from home and work so I can&#039;t ride to work that much. We have a decent network of dedicated paths (Lansing&#039;s River Trail is one of our highlights of our community) and some painted bike lanes. But the reason we got those is federal money was allocated to those projects so when the road was repaved, part of the money to fund that was provided in a federal transportation bill. From what I understand, bike programs like that were all but axed out in the latest round of budget items. I&#039;m a fiscal conservative small business owner and I want to begin commuting by bicycle again at least part of the time. I need safe places ride with small children in tow. But I also need to move fast, so I want these safe places on the road, not just on a protected dedicated path. I&#039;m not alone. I live in a midwestern University and state capitol community that is not Madison WI, but we have similar weather, and it&#039;s pretty much all flat here, so I know bike commuting could be a huge thing here in our city. So if bicycling is so bipartisan, why do we still axe the paint and trails stuff out of transportation bills?  And why do my conservative friends gripe about me &#039;not paying my fair share of gas taxes&#039;. Until recently I drove a 15 year old Ford Explorer, so I more than paid my fair share of those taxes? Is that the perception? that everyone who bike commutes is a hippie who doesn&#039;t own a car??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I ride my bike wherever possible &#8211; I also take two small children to day care/school that&#8217;s quite a distance (without busing) from home and work so I can&#8217;t ride to work that much. We have a decent network of dedicated paths (Lansing&#8217;s River Trail is one of our highlights of our community) and some painted bike lanes. But the reason we got those is federal money was allocated to those projects so when the road was repaved, part of the money to fund that was provided in a federal transportation bill. From what I understand, bike programs like that were all but axed out in the latest round of budget items. I&#8217;m a fiscal conservative small business owner and I want to begin commuting by bicycle again at least part of the time. I need safe places ride with small children in tow. But I also need to move fast, so I want these safe places on the road, not just on a protected dedicated path. I&#8217;m not alone. I live in a midwestern University and state capitol community that is not Madison WI, but we have similar weather, and it&#8217;s pretty much all flat here, so I know bike commuting could be a huge thing here in our city. So if bicycling is so bipartisan, why do we still axe the paint and trails stuff out of transportation bills?  And why do my conservative friends gripe about me &#8216;not paying my fair share of gas taxes&#8217;. Until recently I drove a 15 year old Ford Explorer, so I more than paid my fair share of those taxes? Is that the perception? that everyone who bike commutes is a hippie who doesn&#8217;t own a car??</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-755386</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-755386</guid>
		<description>Tom, thx for your reply.

Fed obligation to protect rights and fundamental freedoms cannot possibly extend past pretty clearly limited enumerated spending powers.  If it did, then, in the instant example, Feds would be required to provide bike trails for everyone, everywhere.  14A, 5A.  &#039;Protecting&#039; does not and cannot encompass &#039;providing&#039;.  Free speech protections, for instance, do not obligate federal govt to provide an audience to hear that speech.  Or, in the other example of fundamental freedoms you cite, &#039;protecting&#039; life and property (or liberty, privacy and travel) does not burden or authorized govt to &#039;provide&#039; for it.

Don&#039;t mean to get off on Constitutional treatises.  But it is important.  And, in a cycling community that boldly steps out to do so many right things right, exchanging this fundamental for parochial gain seems...unseemly.

R/  Jeff Gardner, Redding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, thx for your reply.</p>
<p>Fed obligation to protect rights and fundamental freedoms cannot possibly extend past pretty clearly limited enumerated spending powers.  If it did, then, in the instant example, Feds would be required to provide bike trails for everyone, everywhere.  14A, 5A.  &#8216;Protecting&#8217; does not and cannot encompass &#8216;providing&#8217;.  Free speech protections, for instance, do not obligate federal govt to provide an audience to hear that speech.  Or, in the other example of fundamental freedoms you cite, &#8216;protecting&#8217; life and property (or liberty, privacy and travel) does not burden or authorized govt to &#8216;provide&#8217; for it.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t mean to get off on Constitutional treatises.  But it is important.  And, in a cycling community that boldly steps out to do so many right things right, exchanging this fundamental for parochial gain seems&#8230;unseemly.</p>
<p>R/  Jeff Gardner, Redding</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Bowden</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-748564</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Bowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-748564</guid>
		<description>Jeff - I agree the commerce clause has been abused in the extreme, and now threatens to swallow the entire constitution like a black hole, but I don&#039;t follow your logic.  If travel is a right or even a fundamental freedom, then it is a government obligation to protect that right.  I don&#039;t mean that all rights should be subsidized, but I don&#039;t agree that calling something a fundamental right implies that the government should not expend any funds in support of that right.  Government is justified in spending money protecting our lives and our property by exercise of the police power and, when necessary the exercise of military power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff &#8211; I agree the commerce clause has been abused in the extreme, and now threatens to swallow the entire constitution like a black hole, but I don&#8217;t follow your logic.  If travel is a right or even a fundamental freedom, then it is a government obligation to protect that right.  I don&#8217;t mean that all rights should be subsidized, but I don&#8217;t agree that calling something a fundamental right implies that the government should not expend any funds in support of that right.  Government is justified in spending money protecting our lives and our property by exercise of the police power and, when necessary the exercise of military power.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-746975</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-746975</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Ted.  Actually I did not know that.  There is so much good, thoughtful active information here that it seems like more than an electron existence.  That says alot for the work you&#039;ve done here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Ted.  Actually I did not know that.  There is so much good, thoughtful active information here that it seems like more than an electron existence.  That says alot for the work you&#8217;ve done here.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-746749</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-746749</guid>
		<description>Commute by Bike is not a group, or an organization. It&#039;s a Web site and blog about bike commuting. The opinions of the writers are their own.

I&#039;ll point Tom to your comment for his response to the Constitutional question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commute by Bike is not a group, or an organization. It&#8217;s a Web site and blog about bike commuting. The opinions of the writers are their own.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll point Tom to your comment for his response to the Constitutional question.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-746740</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-746740</guid>
		<description>Tom, I believe there are more recent cases than Wheeler but perhaps I am mistaken.  I&#039;ll Shepardize at first opportunity.

Yes, where to draw the line?  How about the Constitution....which, in line with so much else cyclists stand for, means intellectually and ethically canning the total bastardization of the commerce clause since the 1880s.  Because if, indeed, travel is a right and is without Art. I, Sec 8 Congressional control, then the Feds have no business funding it as privileged spending that Sec.&#039;s Cl 17.

Sadly, for all the good work Commute by Bike does, in the end it is just another privilege group looking for federal dollars and saying their cause is better than others.  That this is true (!) does not change the nature of the objection.

R/ Jeff Gardner
on the road in N CA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I believe there are more recent cases than Wheeler but perhaps I am mistaken.  I&#8217;ll Shepardize at first opportunity.</p>
<p>Yes, where to draw the line?  How about the Constitution&#8230;.which, in line with so much else cyclists stand for, means intellectually and ethically canning the total bastardization of the commerce clause since the 1880s.  Because if, indeed, travel is a right and is without Art. I, Sec 8 Congressional control, then the Feds have no business funding it as privileged spending that Sec.&#8217;s Cl 17.</p>
<p>Sadly, for all the good work Commute by Bike does, in the end it is just another privilege group looking for federal dollars and saying their cause is better than others.  That this is true (!) does not change the nature of the objection.</p>
<p>R/ Jeff Gardner<br />
on the road in N CA</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Bowden</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-702522</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Bowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2012 00:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-702522</guid>
		<description>Oldguy - You make excellent points.  It&#039;s ironic that when most people complain about subsidies (and I am generalizing, but not on the basis of left or right)they are usually in the dark about the true amount of subsidization they receive, whether direct or indirect, via outlay or tax loophole.  You mention the airports, but that&#039;s just the tip of the iceberg.  Although it&#039;s probably  not so much the case anymore, the airlines reaped huge benefits from military programs, because the cost of R&amp;D for jet aviation was heavily &quot;subsidized&quot; by DOD expenditures on military aircraft.  You could say it&#039;s a spin-off benefit, but there is little doubt in my mind  that air travel would be much more expensive but for all of that development, plus the public expenditures on airports, air traffic control, etc.  In another vein, when motorists (probably liberal and conservative) gripe about cyclists who want some infrastructure, they just assume that they are paying their fair share of highway maintenance through gasoline tax, but as has been shown in many other articles, that&#039;s not even close to true, even for the federal highway system, and of course, local roads are mostly supported by local taxes generally, not vehicle user or registration fees.  So it comes down to people who live in glass houses should not throw stones, and they should remind themselves how much they save in taxes by paying a mortgage instead of renting, before they cry foul on subsidization of other consumption choices, whether they relate to transportation, housing, or any other area.  As an aside, I recently read a book entitled &quot;The High Cost of Free Parking&quot; by Prof. Donald Shoup, with the intention of interviewing him for a post here on Commute by Bike.  We haven&#039;t done the interview yet, but in case the title doesn&#039;t give it away, I&#039;ll give you a hint - free parking is anything but.  I wonder how many motorists have any sense that they are imposing high costs on society, and in particular, non-motorists, by demanding and utilizing this &quot;free&quot; amenity that is so ingrained that it is built into building codes all over the country.

Thanks for your thoughtful follow-up comment one year down the line. Maybe it&#039;s time to revisit the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oldguy &#8211; You make excellent points.  It&#8217;s ironic that when most people complain about subsidies (and I am generalizing, but not on the basis of left or right)they are usually in the dark about the true amount of subsidization they receive, whether direct or indirect, via outlay or tax loophole.  You mention the airports, but that&#8217;s just the tip of the iceberg.  Although it&#8217;s probably  not so much the case anymore, the airlines reaped huge benefits from military programs, because the cost of R&amp;D for jet aviation was heavily &#8220;subsidized&#8221; by DOD expenditures on military aircraft.  You could say it&#8217;s a spin-off benefit, but there is little doubt in my mind  that air travel would be much more expensive but for all of that development, plus the public expenditures on airports, air traffic control, etc.  In another vein, when motorists (probably liberal and conservative) gripe about cyclists who want some infrastructure, they just assume that they are paying their fair share of highway maintenance through gasoline tax, but as has been shown in many other articles, that&#8217;s not even close to true, even for the federal highway system, and of course, local roads are mostly supported by local taxes generally, not vehicle user or registration fees.  So it comes down to people who live in glass houses should not throw stones, and they should remind themselves how much they save in taxes by paying a mortgage instead of renting, before they cry foul on subsidization of other consumption choices, whether they relate to transportation, housing, or any other area.  As an aside, I recently read a book entitled &#8220;The High Cost of Free Parking&#8221; by Prof. Donald Shoup, with the intention of interviewing him for a post here on Commute by Bike.  We haven&#8217;t done the interview yet, but in case the title doesn&#8217;t give it away, I&#8217;ll give you a hint &#8211; free parking is anything but.  I wonder how many motorists have any sense that they are imposing high costs on society, and in particular, non-motorists, by demanding and utilizing this &#8220;free&#8221; amenity that is so ingrained that it is built into building codes all over the country.</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughtful follow-up comment one year down the line. Maybe it&#8217;s time to revisit the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: oldguy</title>
		<link>http://www.commutebybike.com/2010/12/11/how-to-talk-about-cycling-to-a-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-702025</link>
		<dc:creator>oldguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.commutebybike.com/?p=6957#comment-702025</guid>
		<description>Tom, In looking at how the comments have accumulated, it is interesting and somewhat sad to see the eventual divergence into opposing camps. Not the intention of the post, but it is what it is. Of all the comments, the two that resonate with me are the Mass drivers and your comment about &quot;where to draw the line&quot;.

I grew up and have family in Massachusetts. I moved to California as a teen, but I return regularly to see family. To some extent the east coast retains vestiges of the old-line proper society--dishes match, shirts button, and there is a social tension among families and acquaintances in small social groups that demands a certain level of behavior. But put these folks in an anonymous setting and they become rude--cut in line at the store, and absolute monsters behind the wheel. Out west we are more inclined to be slobs drinking from jelly jars but to be more considerate of others in the anonymous context. Generalizations to be sure, but an element of truth.

&quot;Where to draw the line&quot; is the essence of our political disfunction. Those who deny that there is a continuous spectrum of political, social, and economic opinion and who cling to their poles do us all a disservice. Folks deride spending on non-motorized modes and mass transit but are blind to how deeply subsidized the other modes are. In California one current issue is the proposed high-speed rail. There are many valid points on which to debate, but many can&#039;t get started because it requires government subsidy. The inevitable argument is comparison to flying. The unexplored lie is that the airlines are private sector so the cost of flying is defined by the efficiency of the markets. But take away the subsidized airports and what have we got? It&#039;s all a matter of where we draw the line--we have to drop the dogma to understand the reality and make informed decisions. 

To those that don&#039;t see the value in the original post, I hope the point becomes clear. Strip away the social engineering point of view in your arguments and focus on communicating the cost of existing support of motorized modes and the potential for savings by promoting non-motorized modes. That is the language that most conservatives will understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, In looking at how the comments have accumulated, it is interesting and somewhat sad to see the eventual divergence into opposing camps. Not the intention of the post, but it is what it is. Of all the comments, the two that resonate with me are the Mass drivers and your comment about &#8220;where to draw the line&#8221;.</p>
<p>I grew up and have family in Massachusetts. I moved to California as a teen, but I return regularly to see family. To some extent the east coast retains vestiges of the old-line proper society&#8211;dishes match, shirts button, and there is a social tension among families and acquaintances in small social groups that demands a certain level of behavior. But put these folks in an anonymous setting and they become rude&#8211;cut in line at the store, and absolute monsters behind the wheel. Out west we are more inclined to be slobs drinking from jelly jars but to be more considerate of others in the anonymous context. Generalizations to be sure, but an element of truth.</p>
<p>&#8220;Where to draw the line&#8221; is the essence of our political disfunction. Those who deny that there is a continuous spectrum of political, social, and economic opinion and who cling to their poles do us all a disservice. Folks deride spending on non-motorized modes and mass transit but are blind to how deeply subsidized the other modes are. In California one current issue is the proposed high-speed rail. There are many valid points on which to debate, but many can&#8217;t get started because it requires government subsidy. The inevitable argument is comparison to flying. The unexplored lie is that the airlines are private sector so the cost of flying is defined by the efficiency of the markets. But take away the subsidized airports and what have we got? It&#8217;s all a matter of where we draw the line&#8211;we have to drop the dogma to understand the reality and make informed decisions. </p>
<p>To those that don&#8217;t see the value in the original post, I hope the point becomes clear. Strip away the social engineering point of view in your arguments and focus on communicating the cost of existing support of motorized modes and the potential for savings by promoting non-motorized modes. That is the language that most conservatives will understand.</p>
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